Damnit, the Lipo battery industry needs better standards!

Last edited by Freezebyte on Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:19 pm; edited 2 times in total

Its a learning experience and a farking expensive one. I knew getting into this avenue of electric truck wasn't gonna be cheap, but holy *censored*, I had no idea the tech in the Lipo's was so *censored* picky and unstable in comparison to NimH. Case in point. ?I slightly puffed one of my Lipos from my second set of SMC Lipo's just yesterday. Yes, in 6 months, im on my SECOND set of $170 Lipo, after I ruined the first batch apparently from running the cells to low with the LVC at to low of a setting and they got destroyed according to Bryan at SMC

I got lucky and got 50% credit from SMC towards a new and updated cell set from Bryan at SMC and I was a happy camper that they came through for me and I proceeded to be more cautious with my Lipo's and raised that LVC on my MMM to 3.5v to be extra safe.

Fast forward three months later to yesterday, I got back from the bash pit and started to charge up my Lipo's like I usually have done so they are ready to go at moments notice when I wanna go bash, its much more convienent for me. I get done with the second pack two hours later and I noticed a slight bulge in the middle of the pack. Hard to tell, but it was easily tellable comparing it to the other pack. My first thought is.....

Ohhhhhh Sh----!

I immediately called up Bryan at SMC this morning and this what I can remember of my conversation with him:

Me: Hey Bryan, this is Bryce from Montana
Bryan: Hey Freezebyte! Good to hear from ya, how goes it?
Me: We'll, im calling cause I have a big concern on my second set of Lipo's from you guys
Bryan: Ok, whats up?
Me: Well, i've been babying these packs since I got them, balance them at every charge, raised the LVC to 3.4v.-3.5v and they've been doing very well up until yesterday when I charging the last one, I noticed it puffed slightly near the end of its charge. Its hard to tell, but its definently budged a bit.
Bryan: How bad is it? Is it breaking the seal on the outside case?
Me: No, not that bad, just the center is raised a little bit if you compared it to the other pack
Bryan: Did you just charge them today before you went out?
Me: No, I charged them the previous night and let them sit like i've always done, its more convienent for me.
Bryan: Ohhh, thats not good for our cells.
Me: What?
Bryan: Yeah, you don't wanna fully charge up your Lipo's until you're ready to go. The cell chemistry in Lipo's and especially ours doesn't like to sit fully charged for extended periods of time. I"m surprised you haven't majorly puffed up your Lipo's sooner as a result
Me: Ohhh crap....now what?
Bryan: Well, I would immediately discharge them either via driving or your charge and get them down to 7.4v or even lower. We typically will use our cells in races up until the LVC kicks in or get noticable slower and then will keep them discharged like that until the day we need them and then charge them full.
Me: Damnit, I heard something about that but I figured it wasn't a big deal,l its just so much easier for me to charge my Lipo's and have them ready to go when I want
Bryan: Yeah, I can understand why and I know some cell makers like Trinity, orion or Turnigy apparently are more forgiving in that area, but ours don't like to kept fully charged for idle periods of time
Me: Damnit to *censored*, so...am I screwed again?
Bryan: I wouldn't say that, it sounds like the puffing is very slightly and it may go away if you get them discharged immediately. I can't say for sure without seeing them myself. I know we have Lipo's that have been puffed for months and we charge and discharge them on a regular basis along with racing them and have had no issues. You very well could be fine, but again, dont' quote me on that
Me: *censored*, well iv'e got winter coming up here and i'm not gonna be able to use my Flux for a few months, so what do I do?
Bryan: For our Lipo's, discharge them to around 7.2v area, don't worry about the rated capacity, we go by voltage. Then once a month or month and a half, fully charge and discharge them to cycle the chemicals in the cells to prevent them from prematurely wearing out. Lipo's do not have the discharge issues that NimH do, so if you leave 1000mAh 7.2v alone and check it a two months later, its gonna be pretty much within .1-.2 V from where you left it
Me: Arrrgh, this is fustrating. So other Lipo's don't have this charge storage issue.
Bryan: They ALL do, some cell makers have their cells be more forgiving for extended periods of full charge then ours do
Me: Damnit, another costly noob mistake
Bryan: I wouldnl't sweat it too much, just take your packs and discharge them to less then 7.4v is the ideal voltage and keep an eye on them. If the puffing gets worse during the discharge or charge, then i'm afraid their ruined. If the puffing stays the same or goes away, you should be fine, just keep a close eye on them. Sorry to hear about the troubles, we do state how to store our Lipo's on our instruction sheet that comes with all our batteries.
Me: Yeah, I kinda read through it but didn't pay it much attention
Bryan: So we have noticed, and were in the process of updating that documentation so people have a better idea of how to care for our Lipo's as for what works on our Lipo's, may not work on other brands.
Me: *Sigh.......* Well I guess thats what I needed to know then.....
Bryan: Again, you should be ok, just keep an eye on them and don't get depressed, well take care of you if they do get worse. We'll stand by our products always and help you and all our other customers best we can
Me: Well, thank you very much Bryan, I do very much appreciate your time and energy to speak with me and other customers
Bryan: No problem, thats what I'm here for. We are crazy busy at times, but we do all we can to help our customers and backup our products. If you ever have any questions or concerrns about anything, even not Lipo related, feel free to give me a call. That's what i'm hear for and happy to do it for our customers like you
Me: *Sighhh* It makes me think about going with the LiFe series of batteries that are more forgiving and easier to take care of, but *censored* they are expensive and not many choices available
Bryan: Yeah, I have heard some good things about them, but I have no personal experience with them yet.
Me: Ok, well thanks so much again Bryan for your time, im gonna go get these discharged and hope for the best
Bryan: Sounds good, don't worry, well take care of you whatever the outcome, feel free to call me and keep my posted.
Me: Awesome, thanks again Bryan
Bryan: No problem Bryce, take care!

Again, SMC has proven that they are willing to stand by their products and going WAY out of their way to help customers. I don't think I can name any company who's gone to such extremes to please customers before. That being said, I am getting very fustrated that the Lipo industry is NOT coming any closer to standardizing the C ratings of Lipo's, let alone the proper way to charge, discharge and maintain them. It seems like they have left the hobbyists to fend and learn from themselves in regards to this new battery tech and if it costs us *literally* to learn about their traits, the industry doesn't seem to give a rats *censored*.

At times, the NimH industry looks like its in good shape to continue being the firm base for electric RC usage. You can charge and discharge them all you want, they can sit for months on end without having to be messed with and you only gotta worry about temperatures during charging and usage. Sure, they are heavier and don't have the same punch the Lipo's do, but damnnit, you don't have to freaking "baby" NimH like you Lipo and thats what's fustrating me the most. A simple battery is causing most of the angst and confusion in this industry and hobby, along with ruined/damaged ECS's, batteries, wallets and feelings and there seems to be no one who is willing to stand up and say "Enough is enough!" We need all these Lipo makers to agree on a proper Lipo care and usage so we don't have this cluster of varied opinion/ideas/suggestions that changes with every single maker of Lipo!

LiFe batteries are starting to look like the REAL batteries of the future. They last longer, can be charged much higher/faster, they dont' need a LVC, they don't explode with over charge/discharge. This is truly what this industry needs, a very foolproof, stable and safe platform to build the next generation of RC hobbyists because lets face it, the diehards will always be a small nit and dedicated group that are willing to put up with the roadbumps of new tech. But its the first time learners, new and curious bystanders watching someone drive and fly and the first time drivers/flyer that will make or break this hobby in the 21st century. Having a battery technology that will advance the usage of RC in all area's that is capable of being powerful, stable, clean and most of all, SAFE and COMPLIANT for the general hobbyist will truly be the best way to help this hobby grow and for people to have safe and reliable fun with their RC equipment.

EDIT: WEDNESDAY FOLLOW UP

I decided to give Bryan at SMC another today and verify some information about their SMC Lipos, specifically what the safest route is to keep them in a charged and discharged state:

Me: Yes, is this Bryan?
Bryan: Yes it is
Me: Bryan this is Freezebyte again from Montana
Bryan: Hey Freeze, good to hear from you again, what can I do for ya?
Me: Well, I'm calling to give you and update on the condition of my Lipo after I discharged them and left around 1000mAh inside them which put them at around 7.3v. The puffing seem to have gone down a little bit.
Bryan: Ok, you should be in the clear then, the new Lipo cell chemistry is a bit more forgiving then the older batch, so just keep an eye on it.
Me: Sounds good which brings me to my follow up question that I couldn't remember your full answer to. For your guy's SMC Lipos and cells inside them, what is the maximum and safest amount of time to keep them at a fully charge state that won't damage the cells?
Bryan: For our Lipo's, no more then 1 day, 24 hours max. Past that, you greatly increase the risk of causing the chemicals inside our cells to start to break down and risk puffing. I know it sucks, I know its a bit inconvienent for some people but our Lipo's are designed for performance and racing and arn't as forgiving as other "generic" Lipo's. Theres a tradeoff, you either want really good performance Lipo's that require more attention and care or you can have lesser performance but be able to beat the crap out the Lipo for extended periods of time. Its like a Ford Focus ya know, its built to last and go for miles and miles but it sure as *censored* ain't gonna win you any street races vs a Ferrari. Each one is built for a different reason and use.
Me: Well, that makes perfect sense, I didn't think about that
Bryan: Yeah, the cells we use in our Lipo's are designed to give maximum punch and power for racing needs and that comes at a price, in this case, they require more attention to their charged and discharged state and react poorly when you over or under discharge them vs other Lipos. I know at one race one of the guys their was using Orion packs and was doing pretty good but was having issues over some bigger jumps. He asked if he could borrow one of ours and he was able to clear the jumps no problem now. I"m not saying Orions are crap, they do make good stuff, but I don't think they are geared for real high end demands like our packs are designed for, however the tradeoff is that you can beat, abuse and use them over and over and they just keep taking it. It just a matter of what you want out of the Lipo.
Me: Yeah, i've heard peeps saying that their Turnigys and Zippys are sitting charged for days or weeks on end with no ill effect and last a bit longer
Bryan: Yeah, Orions are apparently the same way, but we've also seen the performance difference between their packs and ours on the track so its either babying a high performance pack more or be able to hammer and beat up a pack but have less performance, you can't have both.
Me: Well, that makes alot of sense now that you put it that way. I"m glad I asked and now know how to properly care for your guy's particular Lipo's and cells. Thanks so much again Bryan, I really appreciate it
Bryan: Hey your most welcome, glad to be of help. Give us a call if you have any other questions or concerns, thats what were hear for. Oh and congrads on your truck in the new RC Car action! Sweet looking color scheme, simple but nicely laid out with the wheels and tires and even nicer scenery and bashing spot, im jealous!
Me: Lol, well thanks so much! I am pretty proud of it myself and I just heard that my truck also made RC Driver in the Jan 2010 issue!
Bryan: Really? We'll congrads again, I'll keep my eye out for that one too! I'd kill to have a bashing spot like you have up there, especially with that scenery!
Me: Ironic, you want my bashing spot, and I want your guys big races and events, lol Thanks again Bryan, take care!
Bryan: You too freeze!

So there ya have it folks, straight from the horses mouth. Needless to say, i've decided I want more "bulletproof and forgiving" Lipos for my needs. I hate babying crap as it doesn't make this hobby fun when I have to spend extra time and effort into something as simple as a battery. Im gonna order some Turnigys when my SMC's give out and take this as another valuable lesson learned in the new world of Lipo and RC usage.

Wow, taht sucks. All the newbs out there going brushless for fear of tunning an engine. everyone seems to be under the impression that brushless is just plug and go. This has been proven to be a costly mistake.

I would have done the same thing you did. Wheres the warnings of such actions? Did your batts come with some sort of does and donts sheet?

Anyone uses these LiFe series i've been hearing at hobbyking? Will they work well for Savage Flux's demands? I don't see how the *censored* Maxamps can charge nearly $150 for the same LiFe battery

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=218&v=l&sortlist=P

Boy those zippy lipo's sound better and better every day. Rolling Eyes

Haven't people told you to just stick with cheaper lipos that are pretty well proven and.................... cheap.

That sucks freeze, What worries me is I do the exact same thing as you as soon as i finish off to the charger i go. I am in your boat too when it comes to puffing a set and are really looking forward to seeing what life batteries are all about.

knock on wood i have not had problems with my batterys other then sand which was my mistake but SMC took care of me there.... freeze Dont take this the wrong way but the directions in my eyes are very clear its a single piece of paper double sided that takes all of 5 mins to completely read and it does state that u dont want to store them fully charged along with a bunch of others do's and don'ts, i will admit i read it a few extra times since they are $240 battery's so i took extra precautions with them.
sv if people read directions and take the precautions all the company's have stated then brushless is very simple and is plug in play but there are always variables and people that forget a simple thing that ends up being very costly.
people also need to remember this stuff is fairly new so there are always bugs being worked out, thus why smc has been changing cells as there have been new and impoved ones coming out constantly, its somewhat like the computer bizz, u buy a new one and within a month its already old news and outdated lol.
sorry to hear about your mishap freeze but there is always a lesson to be learned making the next set last longer...

wow. I never used smc lipos, had 3 of their nickelmh batts die, and have zero of these issues EVER with all my other lipo brands. (4 brands). Never heard of this lipo charge thing, and I have most all my lipos charged ALL THE TIME. very very new to me, this whole unfortunate thing. Sure hope there is some sound advise for curing the disease.. or at least telling the public 'our batteries do this'. Like I say, none of mine ever do that or ever did. Freeze, your thread title says it all,man

after im done with mine i always charge them to storage mode as well, even if i hit LVC i put them on the charger to ensure both are equally discharged.. they are a quick charge up and im ready to go when im ready to go out again. sucks to hear freeze but hopefully cycling does help. good luck.

I've been reading up on the Life packs. No worries of overcharging or low voltage cutoffs, but 3.3v instead of 3.7v. xtremeR/C did a big write up on them raving about the stability and safety features, but they need a certain charger and were 5mph slower on their test ride.

weird i have stored my smc battery fully charged for a few days and they were fine.

I'm the only guy that use NIMH here ?

I have the flux since February I only lost one batt because I charge it hot after a run and run it hot, then start to use a "wind tunnel" to charge and never have problems with charging temps again. The "wind tunnel" is a one feet PVC pipe with a radio shack 12v fan on one side and a lexan layer on the middle of the pipe, I leave it on during all the charge, and on the finish the battery's are cooler and charge.

ok lipos = less weight but two NIMH 8 cells ELITE5000SC packs cost $115 shipped :/ or $128.50 two 9 cells (but you need to mod the batt boxes)

If you spend $200+ on 2 lipos is not better to buy four nimh at 5000mAh ?

I don't saw yet on any forum a CC ESC burn with NIMH.

Did you find out what was wrong with the SMC's?

LiPo's may still be troublesome but they at least provide you with the power that NiCd just can't deliver. It sucks that LiPo's are vulnerable and expensive but they are a huge step forward. I am using the cheap Turnigies untill the technology has matured.

Wow SMC doesn't want you to store fully charged overnight? Guess I won't buy them then. On the occasions I get to head out to a race or a bash event away from home I like to get my batteries fully charged the night before because there is usually too much to do the morning of the event to have to attend to batteries.

After I run I do try tp get the bats back up to half capacity but sometimes I end up leaving it a couple days. There is also occasion where I don't get to run a fully charged set of batteries and they end up sitting a week.

In any case I thought for most LiPos that the low charge or full charge was only an issue for longer term storage like more than a couple weeks or if the batteries will be experiencing extreme ambient temps or significant ambient temperature swings.

SMC sound as though they are far too sensitive or high maintenance for my tastes.

hyperion 35c packs FTW! look em up Wink

Maxamp batts are pretty good too and you can also get a 3year/1000 cycle warranty and also make batts that are designed to fix in the flux batt box.


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